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Merrie_England
PostPosted: Fri Dec 26, 2008 5:32 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 15 Jun 2008
Posts: 1391
Location: UK

This may be very difficult to accomplish, but I don't like to quit rightaway and say something's "impossible" without having a real good think about it: lately I've been trying to think of a way to make a shoe that's still a "Heelys" type shoe (where you have some toe left to step/stop on) but is easier to use on much bigger ramps without forcing your toe down, so that some of the tricks requiring even bigger air could be done, and yet it could still be worn as an everyday shoe.

I'm not much good at vert yet myself, but I hear that the difficulty with huge drop-ins is that it makes the pumping harder and forces your toes down more, so it's harder to keep the roll going at such great speeds.

So I was thinking, what if there was a largish-wheeled Heely, but one which also had a second wheel further forward to help keep the toe from planting. Sort of a cross between Torches and Rebels. Of course, getting two biggish wheels in the sole (one at the back and one a little further forward) would be doable, but the difficulty then comes in fitting in the grind-plate, as WELL as keeping the plantable toe. The grind-plate would probably have to be between the front and back wheels to allow the wheels to give extra stability. But of course to keep some toe available for normal walking (so that's it's still a "Heely" and not just a 2-wheel inline skate) the back wheel would have to be further back than usual. Now, this would not be tough, and it would save vert skaters from having to sand-down the heels. You would lose the rear soft-brake, but since you can still do a rear-foot drag to brake that wouldn't be too much of a loss. It would mean getting used to the slightly different plate positioning when grinding, but other than that, I think the design might be workable, with some more tweaking of course?

I drew a little preliminary sketch to help you picture the layout but obviously I'm no artist so don't judge it by it's looks Smile



See, my feeling is that since the human foot naturally has an arch in the middle, this is the perfect place for the second wheel, as wheel bays need to take up more depth than a grindplate does if using a flatish plate like a rail-plate which would give better speed to pro-grinders. And this would mean the back wheel would plug more into the rear of the heel than the front, but of course that gives the advantage of never accidentally catching the rear brake.

Well, I'm just bouncing ideas around, like I say it needs more work, but I think this design might allow the heelers who are good enough to get more speed and air on the bigger pipes without forcing the toe down as much and therefore allow heelers to do the same "big air" tricks that the top inline skaters do, and yet still walk normally in them like all Heelys.

Another idea is, since bigger wheelbays can take big wheels and smaller ones provided the right axles are supplied, when not taking it vert, these sort of heelys could come with a smaller wheel-set for more normal walking, which could also save your best vert bearings from getting mucked up during everyday wear, but of course for those who get used to walking with the big wheels in, this wouldn't be necessary if you prefer to use the same wheels all the time - they could just be sold as optional extras. Smile

The other option is that you normally wear it with only the back wheel for normal heeling, making walking easy since you have plenty of toe-area to walk on, and only pop in the second front set of wheels when taking it on the big half-pipe.


Last edited by Merrie_England on Sat Dec 27, 2008 6:37 am; edited 2 times in total

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IVI4V3R1CK
PostPosted: Fri Dec 26, 2008 5:23 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 04 Dec 2007
Posts: 1067
Location: Colorado Springs, CO

Good concept with a brand new learning curve... Let me rate this with a compliment sandwich where I give a compliment, I add some areas for improvement, and I finish with a compliment (5 points to anyone who can guess the reference)...

I like the idea of having a shoe designed STRICTLY for vert (the other shoes can be used with vert but with the limitations are perfect for street). I have been thinking of modifying a pair of shoes just for that reason and I am totally open for a team of people to engineer a pair just for that reason.

The problems I see with that shoe are the wheel, the grind plate, and the other wheel, so let’s start with the back wheel:

- You have planned to move the back wheel to the base of the shoe (almost like a Mack). As you stated you will have NO back break making it nearly impossible for a graceful stop (just plant n' pray lol). Having the wheel in the back would cause for people to have their toes lifted up farther to remain balanced which could cause (because of nothing in the back to stop you) someone to fall flat on their ass. I don't know about you, but falling backwards on a half pipe is 400% scarier then falling forward. So this would mean that a heeler who has never worn a pair of shoes with the wheel pushed in the WAY back would have to relearn dropping in and probably have to relearn heeling in general. This could cause some frusteration and a need to never wear the shoe again.

- The grind plate has been moved back (depending on the shoe size) a full few inches back leaving it under the heel. I have yet to see any type of grind shoe with a plate under the heel (doesn't mean they don't exist, I just haven't seen them). This would mean that all grinds would have to be performed on the heel of the foot where balance becomes a crucial part if trying to avoid not eating whatever material your half pipe is made out of. Again a new way of grinding would have to be perfected and because of the risk and the constant pain, it will probably be rejected after a few tries.

- This part of the shoe I actually had an idea about (we can discuss that later). The issue I have with this is the same idea I was kind of sketchy with the Heel-plate; people aren't accustomed to it. To eliminate any toe touch the wheel would have to be roughly the same size (a little smaller is possible, but it would have to be tested). If the wheel is too small then it will be like the skater is wearing a high heel and is almost forced to put their toe down. Then with a vert smoothing out, the toe may be easier to come in contact with the surface (or during the rise, but either way it will give new meanings to "Toe Jam").

- All around comments and suggestions:
º What happens if people have flat feet? Are they not allowed to trick?
º Would the grind plate have to be smaller to accommodate the wheel setup? If so then wouldn't that make a new grind technique even more difficult to grasp?
º Instead of making a Wheel - Grind plate - Wheel model, why not slap some Mega/Fats and an Express Plate on the Rebels for stability and lack of a learning curve

So all in all, it needs some work but I am happy to know I am not the only one pondering different ways to break new bones. Whether or not Heelys are available in the next few years I am glad to see some people are still thinking of ways to better their own personal satisfaction with the shoe

********************

Now, seeing how this is a thread about modifying vert skating I thought it may be appropriate for me to add my two pence on the topic (had to do it on a UK thread sorry lol). Before I go onto my topic, let me see a show of hands from my fellow heelers in regards to the following question:

How many of you fine Heelers prefer Fats over Megas when verting?

I know myself personally had some SERIOUS issues when it came to working vert in my Rails (I think I was given the name "Gimpy"). It was a hard habit to break that actually was making quite easy by the advancements of the "Mega Wheel" (insert kind of cool music). Now, for the people who rose their hand, you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about (yes I am discrediting your opinion. You wanna fight about it? lol). Fats have been proven and mostly disapproved by 4 out of 5 heelers (I am that one heeler who prefers fats over megas when street skating, but megas over fats when verting). So in turn, I answer your question with yet another question:

Why modify the SHOE when you can modify the WHEEL?

Since the Heelys shoe has came around there have been countless modifications to the wheel and the shoe. But when taking a closer look, the shoes have pretty much stayed the same (yeah they add a grind plate here and move a wheel back there, but mostly they mess around with the layout of the shoe and rarely the performance as shown by looking at the Torch vs Evo and the Rails vs the Grind This!) and the real modifications exist with the wheel itself. Let’s take a quick walk through the history of the wheel shall we:

- Normal Wheel: small wheel that came in an assortment of sizes and had a hard compound. Nice to roll around with but had some stability issues
- Fat Wheels: medium sized wheel with a little wider axle and a deeper diameter this wheel came in a hard compound and a softer compound. Also, the stability issues from the normal wheel were corrected.
- Big Deuce Wheels: large wheels with a split down the middle. Made of a soft compound you can stick to whatever surface you were on, but made nice little streaks on your mom's hardwood floors. Stability issues were all but resolved yet we have to look at the speed issue.
- Mega Wheels: A large wheel with no gap. Rocks getting caught between the sole saver and the wheel still causing people to break their wrists but all known issues with stability and speed have been resolved. Unfortunately the compound doesn't stick to the base causing what heelers call "Air Bubbles"
- Mega Vertz: AHA! A solution to all of our problems. We have a hard compound so NO MORE AIR BUBBLES! We have large wheel so NO MORE STABILITY PROBLEMS! We have smooth surface so NO MORE SPEED PROBLEMS! We have the axles so secure within this wheel NO MORE MODIFICATIONS CAN BE DONE WITHOUT THE USE OF A SLEDGEHAMMER!

OK, so the last comment we could have done without but you get my point. Through the evolution of the wheel, the bigger it is the more stability we get. So instead of modifying the shoe, why not modify the wheel. Let’s take a Mega Vertz wheel and make it Bigger. Make it wider. Make it longer. Make it... well I guess we can only make it wider and longer... But either way, why not take a shoe, keep the bay where it is at right now but extend it as far as it possibly can go (don't eliminate the soft brake completely, but get it out of the way). This way the axle (instead of moving like in the above stated method) can stay in the same place but we increase surface area. Keep the same compound of the mega wheel for additional speed and throw some decent bearings inside of them (shit, if you're gonna charge me up the ass for wheels give me a reason to buy them other then the fact your megas suck so bad).

"Wow Mav, that idea's so cool, but what about the wheel being so large it will slow the skater down due to the weight of the skater being dispersed over the size of the shoe?"

Haha, good question little Jimmy. With the new wheel design, we can also incorporate the use of the Free Spinz modified wheel. If we place a small gap in between we can now use 2 EXTRA bearings to help coast the wheel along to provide less resistance meaning we can now go faster. Faster speeds and more stability we can now push to go to a larger half pipe and make it to get bigger air (or more air off the smaller half pipes).

"Well what about the natural urge of wanting to step your toe down?"

That's an excellent question. My answer to you is don't suck so bad. HAHAHA (Is he joking???) With a wider wheel (meaning the diameter is larger then a standard mega) you'll be provided with an extra boost. When rolling around, your toes are lifted up off the ground to remain in motion. A larger wheel means your toes will be higher off the ground saving you those few extra millimeters typically used when your feet touch the ground.

"It would be near impossible to fit a larger wheel base in the current mega models. The sole would have to be redesigned to be thicker therefore making the shoe look less aesthetically pleasing to look at."

Have you ever seen Toxics? Next question

"A common complaint about the Free Spinz wheel is that one of the wheels will work better then the other wheel. Sometimes the other side stops completely rendering the wheel completely useless."

This wheel and shoe shall be distributed out in limited quantities. Only experienced heelers will be given this shoe at its promotion and it is not recommended by myself nor the company that any non-experienced heeler attempt to move beyond their current capabilities until they are ready.

Please, no further questions -steps down from soap box-

********************

Listen people, Heelys are a fad for everyone. Look at Merlyn, he was our hero and even he's putting his skates away. Emma stopped heeling after a while and so have probably 50% of the people I have known since I've joined this site. This still does not give us the excuse to try and progress the sport any further. I know you're little fingers are probably typing away saying "Wuteevr Mav u dont no wut ur talkin about" but there is at least one person who is reading this saying "Why even bother" and this message is for you.

Why did you come to this site? Why does the Tricks and Tips section only have 2324 posts? That means there were 2324 questions and answers exchanged over the course of this community in regards to the advancement of your heeling abilities.

I am going to be honest. I started skating for me and I blew dog logs. I could barely hit a half pipe and my grinds lasted a whole 2 seconds. I had a camera to record with and no friends to help me. I was completely alone. The only thing that kept me going was the endurance of wanting to do something that no one else has done. And like you guys I was ridiculed and made fun of because of my preference in skating. I just put it all away and that was the fire that made me want to skate better.

After a while I stumbled onto this place by someone who commented on one of my videos. Then I was introduced into a Utopia of knowledge and wealth. This place was so ACTIVE with video posts and skating pics. There was a HUGE HeelyChat gathering the year before and people were STILL talking about it.

But then people started fading away. The sport was reaching a climax and the demos were winding down. The EMMs topped posting and the regional teams were getting smaller and smaller and smaller.

Then HSL did something that I though was amazing. They made a competition for Heelers of ALL skill categories to skate. You can submit a video and show off your skills and only the select few would be there to win prizes.

It was a massive success... in a very big dream. The contest only had 16 entrants and there were 15 prizes. I am going to be honest; I hung up my shoes for a while and refused to skate. Being a large footed heeler I saw an opportunity to win a pair of Torches that I didn't have to pay triple digits for. But then I lost (yes, I lost because 2nd place out of all those videos constitutes as losing). I was placed in the category of kids jumping and landing on the edge of the sidewalk. I was livid after seeing the results and I disowned the sport and all the mother fuckers running it. I mean I know my vid wasn't the BEST but it was better then some of the fuckers who won first place. At least mine followed all the rules that some people who won wouldn't be able to say...

Anyways, as you can see from above I was pretty pissed off. Like I said I hung up my shoes and I gave up. I rolled around at work; I still did footies at the mall. My girlfriend even bought a pair and I'm slowly teaching her, and that’s when it hit me. I was caught up in the money of shoes and the success of something that only a few thousand people have witnessed. I completely lost the whole reason for skating which was for me and it took taking the training of a completely new person to realize that.

Sorry for completely going off tangent and thread jacking you Merrie, but I promise this will all tie in. I completely agree with Merrie England's idea to try and push the sport to continue progressing. I was disappointed to hear of Merlyn's retirement. Hearing that he was having issues with corporate sponsors was utter bull shit to me because I gave up for the same reasons and I realized I was just stopping myself from doing something I enjoyed. But then seeing he wanted to master something else I can completely understand.

So the moral of this whole thing is if you are willing to propose an idea of a new shoe design or critique the ones already in place, then please, move forward and do so, but I am sick and tired of hearing people reject other people's ideas to move this sport forward.

"They say it was impossible to Heel on vert. I say it was impossible to Heel any where else"

**********EDIT**********

So I counted everything and it came to 5 pages, 2501 words (before I made corrections). I think after editting everything it is still roughly around that... lol. I think this may be my longest post to date

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AgeMeansNothing
PostPosted: Fri Dec 26, 2008 8:57 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 03 Jan 2008
Posts: 220
Location: Warshington, USA

Didn't read Mav's reply, which I'm sure is excellent and will read soon.

Just wanted to say... why?

At that point, you've taken away the primary differentiating thing about Heelys which is that there's only ONE wheel on each shoe (I ignore the ones with two as an abomination along side gamers). If you put two on each shoe, you might as well just put on some inlines. Seriously. To me, the skill involved with Heeling vert is not just the act of going up and down a half pipe and pulling tricks, but ALSO that you only have one wheel on each foot! Putting another on just makes it less impressive to me and reduces the skills required to those much more similar to inlining. You would be able to keep your feet side by side, for cryin' out loud! Razz

Edit after reading Mav's post: :clap: :clap: :clap:

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seth1230
PostPosted: Fri Dec 26, 2008 10:14 pm  Reply with quote
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if youve dropped in on vert with rebels you'd know the toe gets in the way. you have to hit the ramp exactly or you'll trip over yourself, hell its hard to do on launch ramps because of the transition. the quarterpipe at the drog left a rip in my pants and the halfpipe, wood burn. with rebels the front wheeel is pretty far bback so you can still sorta walk, putting that wheel up front with the grindlate seperating makes em spinnerz Razz

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Merrie_England
PostPosted: Sat Dec 27, 2008 4:37 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 15 Jun 2008
Posts: 1391
Location: UK

I'll answer one of the last points first, since I realise that a better "vert" heely would be something of a holy grail to many people, and it isn't my intention to mislead anyone:

IVI4V3R1CK wrote:
So the moral of this whole thing is if you are willing to propose an idea of a new shoe design or critique the ones already in place, then please, move forward and do so.
Sadly you sorta got me there too: I mean I can propose a new design as I have here, and discuss it and work on improving that idea, but in all honesty that's probably as far as I can go in that respect. Even if I were so inclined and had the skill/tools/people required, I suppose it would probably be a copyright/patent infringement if I tried to make/sell these shoes myself, so all I can hope for is that maybe some of these ideas might be of some use to someone at HSL (or whatever company replaces them if they don't make it). I give my ideas freely in hopes that they may be of use but just so people know: I don't really have the background to see this through to a finished, saleable product. Making wheels I can do, but making a whole new shoe. . . I think that's a little beyond me.

My initial idea and sketch above was just that: an idea that I was putting forward, and probably doesn't warrant this much discussion on my part, nor the time it would take you to read it, but since I had been having the idea I just didn't think it would do any harm in sharing it. Smile Sorry if I got anyone's hopes up with the ambitious thread titling, as I said at first I am really just bouncing ideas around in hopes it may be useful.

OK, for those who don't mind long discussion, I'll go on with it, I realise most people won't read this, which is fine, so unless you just like reading and discussing for it's own sake (or you work for HSL and might actually use this) there's no need to read on. Smile

AgeMeansNothing wrote:
you've taken away the primary differentiating thing about Heelys which is that there's only ONE wheel on each shoe (I ignore the ones with two as an abomination along side gamers).
Nah, I know Rebels aren't very good - I started on them, but they only suck because the wheels are so damned small (unless you wear the largest Rebels, they're smaller than the smallest FATs): I mean if there was a two-wheeled heely that had two larger wheels (at least the size of large FATs) I'm pretty sure that would be an advantage, because even with the small wheels I and a friend who heels have noticed one advantage to having 2-wheels in your heelys: that it's easier to go over some cracks: because you're splitting your weight over two wheels, the wheels tend to be less likely to go down the gap or get caught on things (compared to when using the same Rebels in 1-wheel mode).

AgeMeansNothing wrote:
If you put two on each shoe, you might as well just put on some inlines.
Well not quite. The thing with Inlines is that they are clearly inlines from any angle. If this new style of heelys was made in roughly the same style as Torches or Evo's, then it would still look like a shoe, and from the front or flanks it would be hard to tell it apart from a training shoe just like most other Heelys: the only side it would be obviously a skate-shoe from is the back, since the back-wheel would be protruding slightly. . . but you still get the: "OMG how is he doing that?" moments when you're approaching someone.

AgeMeansNothing wrote:
You would be able to keep your feet side by side, for cryin' out loud! Razz
Not quite. . . I mean it would be possible for a skilled heeler to skate with their feet side by side on these just as it is possible to do the AOD, but the "wheelbase" would be nowhere near as long as inlines. On many inlines the front wheel is on or even beyond the toe and the back wheel can be quite a ways behind the heel. Almost "2 foot lengths" of separation, which allows you to balance with feet side by side. This would only have like half a foot-length of wheel separation. Whilst this would make it a little more stable a platform to skate on, it would still be more stable if you used the usual staggered heeling skate stance.

seth1230™ wrote:
if youve dropped in on vert with rebels you'd know the toe gets in the way. you have to hit the ramp exactly or you'll trip over yourself, hell its hard to do on launch ramps because of the transition
Absolutely, but I think that's mainly because the wheels are so damned small that there's no clearance, and as you said, any curvature or transition catches the toe (or even heel). I was thinking of this version having larger wheels, maybe even MEGA sized, that way you'd be far less likely to catch the toe, and with the wheel even further back you wouldn't catch the heel either - in theory they'd be better than mega's - in theory of course. Smile

seth1230™ wrote:
putting that wheel up front with the grindlate seperating makes em spinnerz Razz
LOL, yeah they're getting close to that way. I mean I don't think the front wheel should go on the toe because then as AMN said they would just be Inlines, and with the grindplate and a general shoe design by HSL I'm sure they could be far more desirable than spinnerz Smile

Now... onto Mav's post: Smile I think the only way to answer such a thorough post as yours is to take it point by point but sadly that can make it seem like an argument rather than a discussion, but I'm pretty sure you know me well enough to know I'm just being thorough Smile

IVI4V3R1CK wrote:
You have planned to move the back wheel to the base of the shoe (almost like a Mack). As you stated you will have NO back break making it nearly impossible for a graceful stop (just plant n' pray lol).
Yeah the usual soft-braking method is gone, but since I hacksawed the heels completely off my Torches I've found it still possible to brake by doing a rear foot drag quite gracefully on most surfaces... just need to get the toe pressure right and have your centre of gravity in the right place so you don't overbalance etc - you still grind to a halt like braking without having to step/run out of it. Smile Or if you're feeling skilful you could 180 and powerslide. . . granted these maneuvers are all harder than the typical "soft-braking" method, but again these "vert heelys" are intended to be of use to vert skaters and pro's, not beginners - Beginners can still start on the normal Heelys. Smile Since there are now two wheels quite far apart it might even be possible to do some of the other roller-skating stopping maneuvers, like the ones I've seen quad/inline skaters do where they slalom-stop or turn sideways or put their feet in a T to stop? - granted you couldn't lean as far sideways as on blades. But yeah, there's still the option of planting and running out of it, which is why these are still Heelys and not 2-wheel Inline skates. Smile

IVI4V3R1CK wrote:
Having the wheel in the back would cause for people to have their toes lifted up farther to remain balanced which could cause (because of nothing in the back to stop you) someone to fall flat on their ass.
Well sure, it's possible to fall on your ass in any skates, but with staggering the legs in the tradmarked heelys way, and knowing how to balance, I think this wouldn't take long to get used to? Smile I mean since vert skaters remove their heel-brakes anyway. . . . Smile

IVI4V3R1CK wrote:
I don't know about you, but falling backwards on a half pipe is 400% scarier then falling forward. So this would mean that a heeler who has never worn a pair of shoes with the wheel pushed in the WAY back would have to relearn dropping in and probably have to relearn heeling in general.
I totally agree that falling forwards is preferable to backwards, but I think the dropping in would be pretty much identical to doing it in (say) Torches with the Heel removed (my preferred drop-in shoes) - you just have to commit fully as you do on Inlines. Smile

IVI4V3R1CK wrote:
This could cause some frustration and a need to never wear the shoe again.
Yeah, that happens with anything that looks effortless but actually requires some skill, even normal Heelys: I guess that's why there's always a ton of Heelys on eBay that say "worn once and decided it wasn't for me." Smile

IVI4V3R1CK wrote:
The grind plate has been moved back (depending on the shoe size) a full few inches back leaving it under the heel. I have yet to see any type of grind shoe with a plate under the heel (doesn't mean they don't exist, I just haven't seen them). This would mean that all grinds would have to be performed on the heel of the foot where balance becomes a crucial part if trying to avoid not eating whatever material your half pipe is made out of.
True, that part would require a re-learning of where to stall. I'm not entirely sure how this would affect the act of grinding itself, since I've never worn a shoe with plates on or nearer to the heel, but there's room for tweaking I guess if this idea is ever taken further: I mean the plate position needs to be thought about, but just a few decades ago pretty much nobody had seen a shoe with a plate anywhere, even in the middle, and I'd bet a fair few of them would have thought it looked like a tricky maneuver, because I mean, it is. Smile

IVI4V3R1CK wrote:
Again a new way of grinding would have to be perfected and because of the risk and the constant pain, it will probably be rejected after a few tries.
Maybe by the people who sell their Heelys on eBay after "only trying a couple of times," but surely us people who already know and accept that there's always risk involved in any skating/grinding would be willing to slap on the pads and risk a few falls until we got it right? After all, my whole idea for these shoes is that they are designed for the more experienced heelers who already enjoy vert, people for whom a slide/fall or two is quite common, but they get back up and keep trying anyway. Smile

IVI4V3R1CK wrote:
To eliminate any toe touch the [front] wheel would have to be roughly the same size (a little smaller is possible, but it would have to be tested). If the wheel is too small then it will be like the skater is wearing a high heel and is almost forced to put their toe down. Then with a vert smoothing out, the toe may be easier to come in contact with the surface (or during the rise, but either way it will give new meanings to "Toe Jam").
Absolutely, the wheel positioning and curve of the sole would have to be worked out so that it was possible to ride on the wheels without planting the toe.

IVI4V3R1CK wrote:
What happens if people have flat feet? Are they not allowed to trick?
I don't know much about this condition but I guess they'd do whatever they do to wear any normal shoes which have arch-support: Maybe they use special insoles or something? I mean I'm not suggesting to exagerate the arch much, just make the inside of the shoe like any other which has arch support and fits nicely.

IVI4V3R1CK wrote:
Would the grind plate have to be smaller to accommodate the wheel setup? If so then wouldn't that make a new grind technique even more difficult to grasp?
Good point matey. Luckilly in this case I think I have a good answer: maybe the grind plate would have to be a little smaller, but I was thinking since there's a wheel either side of it, if you miss slightly and the inner-edge of the wheel hits the rail first, they could act like the Anti-rockers on aggressive inlines, and guide the rail to the plate, meaning a smaller plate would suffice? And yeah it might be more difficult to get used to, but then heeling (or inlining, or soaping) is more difficult than walking, and yet there are still a few of us crazy people out there who prefer it enough to keep at it until they master it. I'd say the same goes here: it might be tough to learn, but is likely to be satisfying when you have learned, just as all the above mentioned sports are Smile

IVI4V3R1CK wrote:
Instead of making a Wheel - Grind plate - Wheel model, why not slap some Mega/Fats and an Express Plate on the Rebels for stability and lack of a learning curve
I just figured there'd be better stability if the wheels were bigger and a little (not a lot) separated. You could make a grind version of Rebels, but if you make the wheels bigger then it would push the grindplate forwards towards the toe (which is a possibility I guess but again would need a different technique - tell you what, if HSL make a 2-wheel grind model with the plate in front, we'll call it the Maverick Smile Not sure what they'd call my wheel-plate-wheel model tho, the "Merrie" doesn't have as cool a ring to it eh?) Smile So yeah to answer your question basically I just figured more wheel-separation/stability would be preferable, leaving the room for the plate between the wheels, and then of course the added possibility of the wheels guiding the rail into place on the plate if your stall isn't quite on target like some inline anti-rockers do. Smile

IVI4V3R1CK wrote:
So all in all, it needs some work but I am happy to know I am not the only one pondering different ways to break new bones. Whether or not Heelys are available in the next few years I am glad to see some people are still thinking of ways to better their own personal satisfaction with the shoe.
Right on.

IVI4V3R1CK wrote:
Before I go onto my topic, let me see a show of hands from my fellow heelers in regards to the following question:

How many of you fine Heelers prefer Fats over Megas when verting?
I guess it would just depend how lucky you were in having suitable half-pipes. Many of the public pipes around here have such rough edges that vert even in Mega's is a challenge: hell, many kids on inlines and boards have trouble with the edges, some are only suitable for BMX sized wheels. So, if you're lucky enough to have a local pipe with REALLY smooth edges then FATs would be OK, but otherwise the bigger the wheel, the better - because the more under-shoe clearance you have, the less chance of catching an edge and getting a facefull of plywood/steel/concrete.

But I'd bet many people won't read it if I go on about this any longer, so thanks for giving my idea so much thought Mav, and you're welcome to thread-jack mate.

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Slicer
PostPosted: Sat Dec 27, 2008 4:22 pm  Reply with quote
Museum Curator


Joined: 29 Jul 2006
Posts: 1471
Location: Central North Dakota, aka The Middle of Nowhere

reads the dissertations

You guys do know that having only one wheel lets you freely alter the angle of your foot, right? Are you aware of the importance of being able to do this in vert?

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merlyn_DHC
PostPosted: Sat Dec 27, 2008 8:54 pm  Reply with quote
Team Heelys - Northeast


Joined: 15 Dec 2006
Posts: 1803

IVI4V3R1CK wrote:
"They say it was impossible to Heel on vert. I say it was impossible to Heel any where else"


There's an irony in this. Its more true than most of us care to admit.

Skate on smooth vert and you're flying around. Despite the fact that you can fall if you're not careful, you're still a lot safer then street. Skate hard on street and you hit a pebble, crack, bumps, dips .. and WHAM! You're on the ground. Most of the time without pads. You've ripped up your jeans and life sucks. You know its true. We've all been there. Every-single-one of us.

I started skating vert because they said it couldn't be done. But in truth, I would have probably wrecked myself a long time ago skating hard street-only. That said, Heelys isn't a bad vert choice. It's limited, but safer than most other choices. Its relatively easy to learn, and still tons of fun.

Finally, before you change it all around - master it first. Its fine the way it is. The only thing I'd change for vert is larger, faster wheels. Do anything else and you might as well skate something else.

Sorry Mav for your frustrations.

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[Wed 7:53] Slicer: *looks at Merlyn's finger frenzy score*
[Wed 7:53] Slicer: *face screws up in a combination of amazement and a sort of horror*

[Fri 12:06] IVI4V3R1CK: hey Merlyn, if you don't mind me asking, whys your name yellow?
[Fri 12:07] merlyn_DHC: Because I'm Chinese
[Fri 12:08] merlyn_DHC: (isn't that obvious) ?
[Fri 12:08] IVI4V3R1CK: o.o... thats kinda wrong
[Fri 12:08] merlyn_DHC: HAHAHA

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H33LYcRaZeD: thongs arte good

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Merrie_England
PostPosted: Sun Dec 28, 2008 4:48 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 15 Jun 2008
Posts: 1391
Location: UK

Slicer wrote:
You guys do know that having only one wheel lets you freely alter the angle of your foot, right? Are you aware of the importance of being able to do this in vert?
Aye, you could still raise the front wheel to be riding on one wheel again for times when this is necessary.

merlyn_DHC wrote:
Skate hard on street and you hit a pebble, crack, bumps, dips .. and WHAM!
True.

merlyn_DHC wrote:
That said, Heelys isn't a bad vert choice. It's limited, but safer than most other choices. Its relatively easy to learn, and still tons of fun.
Whole-heartedly agree. That's the reason I chose Heelys for my first skating experience: I figure being able to revert to walking when I felt myself losing control, like on a hill or whatever, was safer than the permanently wheeled methods of skating like Inlines, at least for a total beginner like me.

merlyn_DHC wrote:
Finally, before you change it all around - master it first.
Oh, I still intend to attempt to master Heelys, but my brain is never happy unless it's trying to solve puzzles or improve things, and a when I saw this Inline vid which I posted a while back, my brain set itself the challenge of thinking of a way of doing that on Heelys, and has been mulling it over ever since. I can't remember which thread it was in, but upon talking to more vert skaters about whether this would be possible the main problem mentioned was the difficulty in keeping the toe up on such huge drop-ins, hence the idea I was thinking about above which might be a possible way of solving that. Obviously I fully accept that in practise this new design might have it's own problems, but even if I wanted to I couldn't stop my old brain from trying to solve such puzzles, so thanks for bearing with me on this. Smile

merlyn_DHC wrote:
Its fine the way it is. The only thing I'd change for vert is larger, faster wheels.
I thought of that but I think if the wheels get any bigger than Mega's they'd become more problematic to hide under a shoe and keep it still a "stealth" skate like Heelys are: I mean I've gotten used to it now but trying to walk relatively fast normally in Mega's is still a little awkward, so I just figured two medium sized wheels would be easier to hide under the shoe than one huge one, but I may be wrong, and I'd definitely be willing to try a larger wheeled Heely if they make one. Smile

merlyn_DHC wrote:
Do anything else and you might as well skate something else.
Yeah, I know my idea is making a Heely which is a little closer to being an inline-skate in design, but since it still has the wheels mostly hidden under a normal training shoe and not on a blade/frame like inlines, and still has the plantable toe for normal walking/running, I figure it's still a "Heely" type shoe and that there'd be room in the market for this kind of "hybrid" which is not quite an Inline (albeit a little closer to one). I mean I think if it could be perfected and produced, I think you'd agree there may be some advantages to this kind of 2-wheeled "Heely" as detailed in the posts above? Smile

Anyway, I must give a big thank you to all of you for considering my idea, despite the unfortunately long posts:

Thank you Smile

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IVI4V3R1CK
PostPosted: Mon Dec 29, 2008 7:44 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 04 Dec 2007
Posts: 1067
Location: Colorado Springs, CO

AgeMeansNothing wrote:
I ignore the ones with two as an abomination along side gamers
Haha, me too

AgeMeansNothing wrote:
If you put two on each shoe, you might as well just put on some inlines
Not quite. With how ME's setup is you still have to primarily balance on the back half meaning your legs will still have to be apart. Inlining focuses on a completely different muscle memory setup then heeling. I do agree with the Heeling and One Wheel though. Any more wheels and things get clutterred

seth1230™ wrote:
rebels the front wheeel is pretty far bback so you can still sorta walk, putting that wheel up front with the grindlate seperating makes em spinnerz
In ME's model the grind plate is in the back of the shoe (towards the heel). The wheel is near the arch (as explained). Spinners have a wheel in the toe and one on the heel if I remember my knock off's correctly

Merrie_England wrote:
I mean I can propose a new design as I have here, and discuss it and work on improving that idea, but in all honesty that's probably as far as I can go in that respect
Hey buddy, I'm in the same boat. I have a couple of shoes lying around but with HSL's current standing I am not going to ruin those shoes on an idea that will probably blow up in my face.

On a side note though, I have been tossing around the idea of writing HSL with different shoe designs for the performance aspect. I know they invested money in their Pro Models (but where are they HSL? Korea? KOREA?!?) but if they plan on kicking one more model before they jump the shark I would love them to respond to what the heelers would prefer. For anyone who knows corporate I know I am living a pipe dream, but they do come true... sometimes...

Merrie_England wrote:
My initial idea and sketch above was just that: an idea that I was putting forward, and probably doesn't warrant this much discussion on my part, nor the time it would take you to read it, but since I had been having the idea I just didn't think it would do any harm in sharing it
Actually, quite the opposite. I think if enough people get it into their mind that something needs to be done, maybe something will be done. If someone left an idea to just sit there because they thought it would be rejected we wouldn't have near half the things we have today. If Bill Gates would have just given up and flipped burgers after IBM let him go we would still be using Novell. So I appreciate you posting your ideas. With a group effort we may be able to come up with something tangible and submit it to HSL. So please, even for the sake of discussion and engineering, post more reasonable ideas (i.e. Please try to avoid using things like "magic" and "wishes" for a shoe design. Have some thought in it)

Merrie_England wrote:
Absolutely, but I think that's mainly because the wheels are so damned small that there's no clearance
I wonderred if they were going to just give up on the Rebel idea or if they were ever going to make the wheels larger. I always thought of Rebels to be the training wheels of the Heelys industry. I was (and still am) waiting for a pair with larger wheels for a Vert style training wheels. Like how you put it in your design, just remove the grind plate all together and make a shoe with just the wheels, but make the wheels Mega sized. This will get people a little bit more comfortable on vert. But then seeing how Slicer hit the nail on the head with his comment about having one wheel vs two, I can see why Rebels failed.

Merrie_England wrote:
I think the only way to answer such a thorough post as yours is to take it point by point but sadly that can make it seem like an argument rather than a discussion, but I'm pretty sure you know me well enough to know I'm just being thorough
If you didn't have such a crappy time difference (because American Time is better then every one else's time, and Mountain time is the only correct American time Razz ) I would love to sit down with you and have a nice talk and exchange ideas. I love your wheel modifications and I have been dying to talk to you about them, but its impossible to total the time. So I know if you broke down my stuff letter by letter it was only to collaborate ideas and not shoot anyone down.

Also, when it comes down to it, don't worry about the lengths of the post. If some sugar hyped kid with the attention span of a goldfish sees this thread they will probably skip through it all and not care. Honestly, I doubt anyone will even make a comment about this (and I still surprised no one got my family guy reference). So until further arguement by the site Admin, I would prefer it for you to critique my ideas (actually, I was hoping you would, I was really trying to see if there was any flaws in my logic)

Merrie_England wrote:
these "vert heelys" are intended to be of use to vert skaters and pro's, not beginners
Yeah, I kinda realized that after I got off of my soap box, but I didn't feel like modifying the entire section. To be honest with you, I do the same thing (drag my toe to slow me down). I have more control that way. I sometimes use my soft brake but they are so worn down right now, I can care less. Also, here's an equation for you:

"T" Stop + Heelys = Death (period)

Merrie_England wrote:
I guess that's why there's always a ton of Heelys on eBay that say "worn once and decided it wasn't for me."
... Which is why HSL is in the shithouse they're in. The shoe caught like Wildfire, but then a few months later they were selling on eBay like hot cakes (you can see this if you look at their stock price trend over the past couple of years). They didn't think about going to a second hand store (or eBay) and see what their returns were. So instead of redesigning them or making a marketing strategy to move the sport forward they created more fucking shoes. Now they have more shoes then they can shake a stick at and nobody to buy them. The shoes that people WILL buy (even if its the few worshipers) they decide they aren't going to sell them in the popular countries and leave them to be distributed in Asia... (no offense my Asian friends, but we need shoes too!) So when designing a shoe for a purpose (even if it is just something to talk about to pass the time) we need to focus on not having people return the shoes but instead using them until they break, then buying a new pair.

Merrie_England wrote:
I mean the plate position needs to be thought about, but just a few decades ago pretty much nobody had seen a shoe with a plate anywhere, even in the middle, and I'd bet a fair few of them would have thought it looked like a tricky maneuver, because I mean, it is
I think this is the one point that I am going to beat into submission, and if HSL took your shoe design, I would give up lol. Just teasing.

But still, you're right with the decades ago there were no grind plates but there was a reason they put it in the middle of the shoe (they didn't wake up one morning and say "Hmmm, I think I want to put the plate here"). You have to learn a brand new balance technique for the grinds, as well as weight distribution. They placed it in the middle of the shoe so you can move your hips to swing your balance (if you don't believe me, stand on a rail and hump the air. Don't stand on anything else and don't support yourself in any means. If you can do it without a struggle, let me know). If you place the plate on the heel, you are now losing the movement of the hip because you have to have your legs locked for balance straight up.

Basically, when you watch ANY grinding video, everyone's legs are bent. If you actually PAUSE the video (especially one with a profile shot) and then trace from their knees down, it will match roughly the same point of the grind plate. As long as that remains bent, you can throw your weight around a little more freely and still have some balance. Now if you try doing it on the heel and you bend your knees you would lose your balance forward because you are distributing more weight to the front. To get true balance you'll have to stand STRAIGHT up and use your chest, arms, and head to throw your weight around. You lose that additional freedom to perform anything tweaked or custom as well as making it more dangerouse to already skate.

*** NOTE ***

I agree with the stuff in between these two posts, so I am not going to waste valuable internet space stating that

***********

Merrie_England wrote:
I guess it would just depend how lucky you were in having suitable half-pipes
Nope. I am not saying I live on golden halfpipes or anything, but I can tell you there is a HUGE difference between megas and fats when verting. Its just that you're so low down you don't have the space to move your feet. The only variable shitty craftsmanship has is on the ability to manuever. Otherwise, why would they make Evos, Torches, and Pros all with Mega Wheel?

Slicer wrote:
You guys do know that having only one wheel lets you freely alter the angle of your foot, right? Are you aware of the importance of being able to do this in vert?
Yup. Mentioned above in my first post.

merlyn_DHC wrote:
Finally, before you change it all around - master it first. Its fine the way it is. The only thing I'd change for vert is larger, faster wheels. Do anything else and you might as well skate something else.
Agreed, and I think thats where AMN and Slicer is coming from as well. Changing a shoe to adding things and swapping them around, its just not heeling (its not inlining either, nor nothing comparable). Which is why if I saw HSL change ANYTHING it would be the wheel diameter

merlyn_DHC wrote:
Sorry Mav for your frustrations
S'ok

Merrie_England wrote:
Thank you
Not a problem. Like I said before, even if these ideas just sit here to get lost by the next big thing to come onto the General spot its still something that gets me pretty pumped for the next shoe that may never come out. So really I am thanking you for having starting this thread

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Merrie_England
PostPosted: Wed Dec 31, 2008 10:51 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 15 Jun 2008
Posts: 1391
Location: UK

Good post Mav. I can't argue with that Smile

One final point tho:
Slicer wrote:
You guys do know that having only one wheel lets you freely alter the angle of your foot, right? Are you aware of the importance of being able to do this in vert?

There's no reason why you'd be any more limited with this 2-wheel design, since you can always pop out the second wheel, or even simply raise your toes, just like you do on any Heelys, and voila! - you ARE on one wheel again: Smile

Here's a pic with an extra "floor" line showing how the toe can be raised so that the foot can be steered just like one wheel heelys, and so that the toe doesn't catch if there's a particularly sharp transition:



But having a second big wheel in front would be a nice option I think: I mean it's better to have the choice I think, and I'd love to try it. Maybe one day when I get enough used up pairs of heelys I'll have a go at cutting up some heelys and sticking in a second wheelbay, but I suspect this would be a very difficult job for my limited skills: it would definitely benefit from being made professionally. Smile (*hint hint* HSL) Very Happy

Besides, having more than one wheel (often 4 per foot) doesn't stop Inliners from doing vert, in fact quite the opposite, so I don't think it would stop this 2-wheel heely design from doing vert.

Plus with the other wheel in the back, there's no chance that if you raise the toe too high, you'll catch the heel. The second wheel is just there as a back up for when needed. Personally I think the "two mega wheel heely" would be better for vert than simply one EVEN larger wheel, but yeah there's still an issue of whether having the grind plate a little further back might cause a problem. I still think that if it was between the wheels like the grind-notch on aggressive skates, that this might be of benefit, since the wheels could act like anti-rockers and guide the rail to the plate if the stall wasn't spot-on first time, but yeah I accept that grinding on the heel might be more difficult, at least at first.

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Kain
PostPosted: Sat Jan 03, 2009 2:00 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 22 Feb 2007
Posts: 1548
Location: Ohio

.....you're not alone Mav.......it was more than just a fad for me. I was seriously into vert heeling, and I'm willing to stick with it. I can't speak for anyone else, but I hope the pro team is committed enough to bring heeling back even if the corporate team fails.

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Light of Orion,
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Call of the dancing Universe.
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"Love me for who i am, love my soul...not the body it occupies, love my heart, not the desire it hides...and love me....for what i am..."

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seth1230
PostPosted: Sat Jan 03, 2009 3:58 pm  Reply with quote
Heelys Encyclopedia


Joined: 19 Mar 2006
Posts: 2974
Location: Representing SouthEast

Kain wrote:
.....you're not alone Mav.......it was more than just a fad for me. I was seriously into vert heeling...


XD



past tense. sentence fail.

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wiz
PostPosted: Fri Jan 30, 2009 4:56 pm  Reply with quote
Wiz-Meister


Joined: 04 Jan 2009
Posts: 391
Location: South Carolina

omg Shocked ...to many long posts...can't...go...on...reading any...farther!
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subversed
PostPosted: Sun Jul 11, 2010 9:45 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 05 Jul 2010
Posts: 30
Location: PA

this is an epic bump, sorry.

the nano has introduced something- a concept i'm very interested in. using the heel bracket as a mount rather than just a slot for a wheel- imagine a bracket that would slot in (and maybe strap over the toe area) that would basically turn heelys into portable inlines? it's possible and they'd actually be stable if another (smaller) bracket was added to the toe.



picture this.

aggressive skaters have used a wheel combination of Normal-Roce-Roce-Normal wheels for a long time if they planned on grinding, why not on our heels?

the recess of the toe-socket would only have to be about a cm in, which could be accomplished without hurting the comfort factor of most heelys shoes. it also would not have to be a complete heel bracket- it could be a small horizontal snap-in, about 2 inches in length to straighten the chassis piece and keep it from veering or wobbling.



MSpaint FTW

took about ~9000 hours.

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im goin outside
PostPosted: Wed Jul 14, 2010 3:08 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 30 Sep 2008
Posts: 220
Location: idaho

[quote="subversed"]this is an epic bump, sorry.

the nano has introduced something- a concept i'm very interested in. using the heel bracket as a mount rather than just a slot for a wheel- imagine a bracket that would slot in (and maybe strap over the toe area) that would basically turn heelys into portable inlines? it's possible and they'd actually be stable if another (smaller) bracket was added to the toe.

[img]http://i28.tinypic.com/f1xe2r.jpg[/img]

picture this.

aggressive skaters have used a wheel combination of Normal-Roce-Roce-Normal wheels for a long time if they planned on grinding, why not on our heels?

the recess of the toe-socket would only have to be about a cm in, which could be accomplished without hurting the comfort factor of most heelys shoes. it also would not have to be a complete heel bracket- it could be a small horizontal snap-in, about 2 inches in length to straighten the chassis piece and keep it from veering or wobbling.

[img]http://i25.tinypic.com/1qpxq8.jpg[/img]

MSpaint FTW

took about ~9000 hours.[/quote]

i have never seen such long posts in ANY other forum, so yes epic bump. Deserves archives due to the intense typing involved..."best of"

I do believe the new guy just showed proof of concept. however it takes larger wheels, and after adding wheels or making them larger when do they become roller skates and less like heelys?
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